S
By scribbler, 6 May, 2013
Participants
scribbler
Ian.T
Rula
BlueDemon77
Beauregard
wesley snow
eightmenout
weirdelf
Mark
Skill level
Splash Pool
Date
-
Short description
immersing readers in your poem
S

This is a shop open to all members new or old. To join just either say you want in on this stream or let me know via private message....................................stan

Ian.T

Ian.T

11 years 11 months ago

this one seems like a good Idea so I would like to join the melee.
Yours Ian.T and Friends
PS:- Maybe I will do it myself lol..

Rula

Rula

11 years 11 months ago

Please consider me in. I'm sure there is something new to learn from everyone here
Thanks in advance ..

weirdelf

No rules, a topic very hard to get to grips with.
Oh man, I wish I had come up with this one, great idea Stan.
The discussion itself will be valuable.

Rula

Rula

11 years 11 months ago

poetry is meant
to address
others;
to impress
them
or lessen
their stress.

we play
with words
to caress
the world
problems,
and erase
the mess.

Just then
poetry
is a success

Rula

Rula

11 years 11 months ago

I have started before giving the green line. Just few thoughts to share . :)

S

No problem but this is just the Announcement of the workshop not the shop itself lol.............stan

Nordic cloud

Had me wondering what your meant by relativity Stan. Now I see.
I shall be away from the net at the time of your workshop, so there
won't be much point in me taking part in it, specially if it is to be
done fast, as you say. Good luck to it anyway.. I started:

Relate, relationships, relegate divides,
describing societies norms of conduct, form a bond,
for some and life commitment,
for others an excuse,
to fall in love...

And then thought it was physics, but I see it is a metaphor,
in a way- good luck as I say. Love from Ann.

wesley snow

Please, list me as participant and moderator (if you still would like my help... I will be here playing with my new program, so I will keep up).

S

You're in on both counts. But knowing the other load you are carrying, I'll try not to call on you in moderator capacity...............stan

E

Not sure I will be able to keep up, but would like to give it a try.

Thanks,

Scott

S

We will be glad to have you contribute to this shop. Don;t worry about keeping up, there will be plenty of time given for each stage...................stan

S

OK folks let's get started. The purpose of this shop is to share techniques on how we can get a reader to relate to or immerse themselves in our poetry.

Why is this important? Simple, we all want our poems to be remembered,or at least a part of them, over time. It is my opinion that there are two things which best allow this to happen. One is rhyme.But that will be covered at another time. The other is making a reader personally relate to a poem.

There are many methods for doing this. Some are used mainly at the beginning of a poem, some at the ending. But lets start out by discussing something which is best used throughout a poem. Imagery.

If we went to a play performed in total darkness, this would be like reading a poem with little or no imagery.Imagery is like a play's set and costumes.So it's important that we "set the stage" for our readers. Give him/her a mental picture of the entire set for the poem.

Now I'll shut my big mouth and give ya'll a chance to share your ideas on imagery. Please try to not be TOO long though lol..................stan

Ian.T

Ian.T

11 years 11 months ago

Just kicking a few images around but will be serious and write a proper piece later....

Just have a look

If only you could see,
the things that I hold in my Memory.
Yet where would I myself be
bereft of even my past reality.

Now there are other things
I can paint a picture of words.
Where your thoughts would ring,
I must paint true, that's absurd.

My imagination would drive you mad
A picture by Picasso of thought,
I bet you will be so glad
This is impossible and comes to nought.

Now you say we are going to be taught,
How to show others how we think.
My poetry may be bought
Though others will say it stinks.

Just playing around I will write a piece for the Workshop a little later.
Wifes shouting at me to go peel the Potaters.
Bye for now will try to be good somehow,
If it is possible for me to be, Yours Yenti

S

Get back when you can with some thoughts on imagery such as the different types and how they can be used. Or other ideas you might have on how to use imagery to immerse the reader...........stan

wesley snow

since we have only a few hundred thousand words in the English language to use... in avoiding repetition we must use EVERYTHING at our disposal... and then look for more.

Rula

Rula

11 years 11 months ago

imagery works at the beginning of the poem to set the scene for the reader
whereas the ones that come through out enrich the poem especially if
well-captured.

Rula

Rula

11 years 11 months ago

The whole poem is one imagery

S

Yes, sometimes imagery Is used to bait the hook then kind of dropped later. But aren't the poems in which imagery is maintained throughout a bit better at holding a reader's attention? Of course that's about what you just said isn't it? lol............stan

S

Yes. And it doesn't have to be visual imagery either. There are at least 4 types imagery which I can think of off the top of my bald head.......................stan

Ian.T

Ian.T

11 years 11 months ago

Imagery:-
In poetry the main Image is suggested in the opening stanzas and teased throughout the poem then finalised at the end.
These three parts must be smooth and keep the readers interest.
Poets Paint a picture in words it is the selection of the words that convey and maintain an image in the reader.
Sometimes simple words can be very powerful as in painting the primary colours are fine with the various strength of the colour.
But use a mixture of words as with colours this opens a new vista to the mind.
I am mostly of simple words but I enjoy the complex words some of our poets use.
We must learn to write with the imagination where we can expand the boundaries of each line,
I am very rarely lost for things to write though I do joke sometimes, but in joking it produces a feeling in others , of frustration or anger or just fun these are a few of the tools we can use to write with, then it is finding the right words.
A thesaurus is very useful piece of equipment, but if used make sure it is an international one, obviously a dictionary also, I have some from early 1900's and a few books printed in America of Slang they are old, Some of the words used these days have become old fashioned but just another colour for the picture.
Imagery in poetry means you just have to open your imagination and believe in what you can write.
This will do as an intro hope I have started out on the right/write lines Stan, Yours Ian.T

S

There are times when one can use an abrupt change in imagery to emphasize a ponit too. And I agree about the power of simple speach (mainly because that's all I Know lol.) And it's often the attention to a minor detail in supplying imagery which can have the strongest impact.............stan

Ian.T

Are we going to have a place where we annotate for the workshop or have I missed it ??? am use to ticking the box for comment on the workshop but haven't seen it yet..
Thanks for your replies I have read them all,
Yours Ian.T

E

I like for imagery to be offered,, but not forced or coerced. Draw me a picture and then let me color it in. Build me a crossword complete with clues and let me fill in the blanks. We all write with emotions at heart, but ultimately it is the readers emotions that will define the poem, in which ever way they interpret.

Scott

S

Description of emotions is in itself a type of imagery and a powerful one at that. And I agree that one must be careful to not jam so much imagery into a poem that it takes over the poem instead of what the writer is trying to convey..............stan

S

I'm gone for a few hours but shall return later this evening. So ya'll feel free to continue the discussion while I'm away. Everybody so far has brought up some good points.............stan

S

I have an idea. While we're discussing imagery why don't we all give an example of a favorite line which contains imagery. Can be something you wrote or somebody else here at Neo or even a famous poet. Also let us know if the line was at the beginning,middle or end of the poem...............stan

wesley snow

"I spied a Sylph upon a lily leaf
and watched her sail- a Captain on the sea."

This is mine.
Imagery is what the reader "sees" inside their own mind.
The line came to me asking for a poem. Whether it succeeds at envisioning what I saw is subjective, but in my mind I see a man on a park bench or kneeling, staring intently upon a single leaf where a great wind is pressing upon a sailing ship. The tiny Captain (pointy eared, perhaps with faerie wings) is where the reader will place "her"(?) until I place more imagery before them. I think with but the one line I can see the wind blowing her hair, a cutless at her waist, perhaps a bandanna about her forehead. The line places her at the wheel or the crow's nest.
If I am honest with myself, I feel the one line alone places all of this in the reader's mind.
Inferrence is what I'm talking about here. Imagery doesn't have to be overrun with description to put what are common relationships before the reader's eye.
"Captain on the sea" is brutally concise, but I feel it can easily wake in the reader an endless array of... cliche.

Below I quote from my recent blog.

"Then there is Hemingway and his Iceberg.
(sometimes called “the theory of omission”)
“If a writer of prose knows enough of what he is writing about he may omit things that he knows and the reader, if the writer is writing truly enough, will have a feeling of those things as strongly as though the writer had stated them. The dignity of movement of an ice-berg is due to only one-eighth of it being above water.” Ernest Hemingway"

Much imagery can be created if we can produce small pieces of information that draw on society's common background. The theory of omission means that if I choose my words well I can use humankind's common memory to elicit specific, instinctive responses. Without actually "showing" my reader I can put him/her in any number of locations by drawing on what we experience alike.

I believe it is such a powerful tool that if used to its fullest one might almost deem it... cheating.

S

Your sylph/captain can indeed be seen in peoples minds many different ways. Could be a bare breasted viking with hair flowing and sword drawn. Could be a stern woman in olde British naval uniform...or almost everything in between. Thus when we use imagery it, like the poem itself, becomes the proprty of the reader. "the woods are lovely dark and deep", up to the reader to decide if the woods are evergreen, hardwood or a mixture..............stan

weirdelf

actually difficult to understand. I love Wesley's use of Hemmingway's iceberg, and can see how important it is.
Yet I think we might be taking it too far to call everything imagery. First and foremost imagery is images. Yes they do include sound, touch, taste and smell (but be very careful of smell because it is one of the strongest memory associaters and can be peculiarly personal).

Emotions are not imagery.
Nor are ideas.
Emotions and ideas can be evoked without sensory imagery and can be just as powerful in allowing us to immerse in a poem.

Ian.T

Surly emotion can be described in such a way as to be called imagery..
Though it is a feeling very singular to all, it can be placed in a teardrop..
A teardrop that is sad or happy its imagery is how it is presented
What say you ???, Yours Ian

Ian.T

More Imagery,
I have talked to many people and especially the children I know.
I have held a talk with one of the children that only used the word NO.
If we could only reflect this in our poetry it would be worth a million words.
Also recently I was listening to a soprano singing beautifully, not sure what the piece was, some Russian piece, but it was all based on on one vowel.
Every sense we have can be expanded with colours feelings and even a Picasso type interpretation, it is down to the imagination of the writer within the bounds of poetry's forms but even then we have good old freestyle that encompasses everything we are aware of.
If I can stand on a butterfly's wing and talk about the walls that surround each field of beautiful coloured soil, that seems to lift and undulate as the creature flies then the universe is ours.. Yours Ian.T

E

Anne Sexton inked the following in her poem Lessons in Hunger

Silence fell off his tongue
And sat between us
And clogged my throat
It slaughtered my trust

wesley snow

Rula, that is precious. I love the internal rhyme in the first two lines. I think the lines are insightful concerning the speaker, BUT... I don't know that it is "imagery". The lines succeed, thus proving to me that imagery (as Jess remarked) is not necessary to convey an idea. I don't think they hold specific imagery because as I read them I "hear" the idea, but I see nothing in particular.

Now, EMO's lines are imagery and rather harsh at that. The line between image inducing "show" and information conveying "tell" is fine indeed and I am quite confident I cannot discern the difference all the time.

Rula

Rula

11 years 11 months ago

I posted this few min. before jess's . But i thought the creeping, sleeping and leaping things convey some kind of imagery but maybe l am wrong. Can we really draw a line between what's imagery and what's not? Just wondering.

BlueDemon77

Imagery is usually a metaphor. It is a bit of writing to access the reader through visual 'images' help inside the reader. It acts most often as a word or words of definement, so the writer has the best chance of having the reader understand with the most possible exactitude before moving on to the narrative.

As below in one of my lesser poems, I'll point out the images. Hopefully that will clear it up for you.

Autumn skies
-
By RW
-
-
(pinpoints above, as needleholes poked through a blanket) stars but with more imtimacy
(he sea of grass)envelopes us, sweaters wet with dew not the real sea, but long grass movine wavelike
The movement and currents not drawing us away sustenance of the sea imagery and how it relates
-
-
Just a play for our amusement
-
-
-
kisses and awkward fumbling, we want but not sure what
so our lips make our love for us, all for you, all for you
The rarest of times when I live a myth and know it then
-
-
Instead of latenight memory's hazy filters
-
-
-
These moments are alive, electric, we are dancing prone
The smell of sweet innocense and expensive lotions
( turn the world into a crumbled spitball ) playful, childlike, innocent. not a real spitball
-
-
We blow into the Universe (continuation of the spitball theme)
-
-
-
We and it are one, it fills us, thrills us... (of course they aren't actually connected to the moon, so it's image)
the lazy moon in waltz across the autumn skies (nitpicky but the moon doesn't waltz)

The intent I had was to make a romantic but innocent piece about two yound lovers and how their feelings transformed the world around them into the most romantic setting they can imagine. I hope this helped !

Thanks Rula!

Ron
BlueDemon77

S

Sorry for being awol but work intruded and then got back home just in time for a short power outage. Now to Rula's line.I think creep and leap are both words that form a picture in my mind. As to whether or not emotions can be imagery............I can see where that could well go either way. I guess it probably depends upon the line in which the emotion resides.
I really like the stanza EMO used. Probably because it lends motion to a silent tongue.
Back to emotion and imagery. I've given it some more thought (thanks for resultant headache lol). I think I can come up with 2 lines one of which uses an emotion as imagery and one which doesn't
does...........Her face relayed it's rage by growing ever deeper wrinkles
doesn't........ Her rage was severe as a tutor's frown
Now I'd best find a line filled with imagery myself lol.

Ian.T

Ian.T

11 years 11 months ago

You should remove without reserve that vision of a woman,
It will eat at your subtle ways and throw stones onto your pathway.
Rage is a good way of expressing things as are most describing words.
There is a craft to be able to use words then a space,
(Not a literal space but to plant the thought)
that the reader without knowing fills in the idea with their own interpretation of the theme.
The use of subliminal frames in films can be adapted with words in patterns,
Acrostics that have hidden sequences, with a cryptic message.
No doubt we will talk more on these things later, but it is late here, around 00-14 am, this old guy must join those that are already sleeping , as I have given up on beauty sleep, and let the wrinkles become the roadways of the face for all the tears that we have in our dotage,
Yours Ian.T , Yenti, and Sparrow,

S

Subliminal poetry. I expect that the best poetry Does have subliminal meaning(or secondary meaning) Indeed it's often the non-surface meaning which conveys the most power.

OK now my image lines :
I miss the smell of honeysuckle
and sweet magnolia blooms
wafting through my open widows
and permeating darkened rooms

Ian.T

Ian.T

11 years 11 months ago

OK now my image lines :
I miss the smell of honeysuckle
and sweet magnolia blooms
wafting through my open windows
and permeating darkened rooms..

I will expand this by shrinking it, if you read what I mean

Honeysuckle and sweet magnolia blooms
touch my senses, in my darkened room.

Does this let the reader choose his/her own room,
Also the way they sense those blooms ????
Then they can miss the perfume or bathe in its beauty??
I used a different paint brush but the same colours..
I suppose this is poetry and its defining words giving out the choice to the reader..

Darkened rooms secreted by flowering blooms..

This changes things as it then gives us another choice of which bloom in our own sphere, as here I would have to journey to be near Honeysuckle and Magnolia. then you would have taken me somewhere.
We must choose which way we use our words, it depends on the individual..
This is going to be a flowery workshop Stan, and it will also give an insight to some thinking patterns..
Take care yours Ian.T

S

Don't worry. It's just this imagery section that's likely to be flowery. And this section will be ending soon. I chose this particular stanza because it contained both imagery and a bit of emotion. Your final condensation of the stanza into one line is very minimalist lol..............stan

Ian.T

Thanks for your reply, did the single line lack imagery,
I was just playing with the scene and the words.
I shall await the continuation of the workshop lol
Yours, Ian.T

S

A writer can sometimes actually invite the reader to join them. eg.:
Come my friend and walk with me
as I go down this path
who knows what sights we may see
or the journey's aftermath

Ya'll can now supply examples that you have seen of this or discuss whether you think this is an effective method. Be prepared to tell why you think it is or isn't...........................stan

Rula

Rula

11 years 11 months ago

I think inviting the reader in this friendly way would work exceptionally good when the author is taking us in strolls.Still I don't find it strong enough to grasp the reader's attention as for example drawing an image. Moreover, if not crafted well, it might sound cheap, just like a salesman pitch :)

S

Ofcourse an invitation followed with sub-par poetry will not work. We will lter be using all the things will discuss combined to help immerse a reader. But trying to discuss everything at once might be a bit confusing lol. An author can invite one along on many journeys....through life,down through the forest. a journey in one's mind, and more which I can't think of off the top of my head...........................stan

weirdelf

in my longest poem ever, "Watermana"
and Wesley has too, for his very long works.
Shakespeare often used the device.

When the piece is asking you to stay for the long haul it can be valid.
In a short poem it sounds kind of desperate.

S

The few times I've used it has been in shorter love poems directed at Susan. The only other one I can recall using it in was approx.80-100 lines. But it IS one way, if done right, to get the reader involved. I'd appreciate your posting the first few lines of Watermana so we could all see another example. They are apparently fairy scarce among established poets...............stan

E

Take my hand
come into this dark room
get down on the floor with me
let's get slain...

Henry Rollins from One From None

outside of the obvious, I believe there are a lot more invitations than we think. Sometimes we just need to look at the world with a different set of eyes.

S

Alot of modern poetry has taken the form of song lyrics. Things that can be inviting : cool water on a hot day, the smell of hickory smoked BBQ, eyes, a type of smile..........well ya'll can add to this list...........stan

S

There are also poems which wind along well and have a lot of good things going for them but Just Don't Connect on a personal level ..........until the last stanza or sometimes the last line. Dylan was good at this as was Frost. So for those who haven't fallen behind let's hear whether you think this is effective, if so is it more effective in one type poetry than another. And if you have a poem (your own or another's) in which this is put to use,please share at least the last few stanzas(even the whole thing if you want) with us. For those who are falling behind, don't worry about it, just comment as you have time.

Rula

I'm afraid I'm not getting your point here, therefore I was waiting for others to see what you mean but guess everybody else's are the same ..Lol
Do you mean to say that connecting to a personal experience is effective ?

S

I'm saying that there are more than one point in a poem in which the writer can reach out and connect with the reader. Some times it's right at the start or the poem(maybe even as early as the title itself) and sometimes it's in the last stanza or even line where the poet writes something which makes a reader realize the poem could well be about them. An example of this would be Frost's "Hyla Brook". He goes about describing a small brook in June and does well. But it's only a description. I'll type the last few lines to show this:
......................
Its bed is left a faded paper sheet
of dead leaves stuck together by the heat-
a brook to none but who remember long
this as it will be seen is other far
than with brooks taken otherwise in song
...............Ok a good description of a heat dried brook. So what?
we love the things we love for what they are
BINGO! It goes from a mere description to relating to the reader by stating a fact that appearances don't matter but substance does.
Hope I made myself a bit clearer by giving this example. This is a technique used by many here and elsewhere and I bet you can find a few examples (even in my scribbles) if you think about it a while.........stan

S

the thing a writer who waits until the last moment to make a connection has to be careful about is that it doesn't come across as an afterthought............stan

weirdelf

I went on a journey
I went on a journey
I sought mana of feeling
empowerment for those
who would share my journey
I prayed for mana of feeling,
empowerment of feeling,
for those who would share my journey
I prayed to the spirits of the lowerworld
for empowerment
with love for you
who share my journey

Rula

Rula

11 years 11 months ago

As I see it, both the repetition and the invitation work hand in hand in immersing the reader into the poem.
Is repetition usually one of the devices to do so?

S

Your longest poem? lol the invitation is a bit oblique but still effective along with the repetition..........stan

wesley snow

is a risky set up, but since we all desire to produce quality we should all be willing to stick our neck out. As said, if the journey is bunk, the invitation is hackneyed. Also, I agree that if there isn't at least a little size to the poem then it generally doesn't work. It does little good to invite us to a short, poignant love poem, though it doesn't have to be epopee either.
It works best in my mind with the poetry that doesn't take itself too seriously. A poem of protest, say, or something dealing with a controversial religious discussion will sound silly with the invitation. Something like my big poem- romance... fantasy... adventure... you can get away with it. In Jess's poem I think it works because of the trance like effect it creates. He is truly asking us to take a journey, perhaps even a dangerous one.

Stan, when there is opportunity I would like to discuss the words "as" and "like" and how much I detest them. What other options are there for comparison phrasing?

S

Glad you didn't say the invitation Never works in any but lengthy poetry. I have few poets whose works I've come near memorizing and can thus call up examples at will. Frost is one and I know ya'll are sick of hearing about him but I don't want to slow things down by having to take time to look up another and Really hesitate to use my own stuff as examples.
So consider:
The Pasture

I'm going out to clean the pasture spring
I'll only stop to rake the leaves away
(and wait to watch the water clear, I may)
I shan't be gone long - you come too

I'm going out to fetch the little calf
that's standing by the mother. It's so young
it totter when she licks it with her tongue
i shan't be gone long - you come too

AS to discussing word LIKE "like and as"......I will try to get into your disLIKE of them AS time allows lol. I expect you are talking about their use as metaphor descriptors though....................stan

S

Don't forget to be going through your own poetry to choose one in which you think you failed to relate to readers. The time for posting the approaches soon..........stan

wesley snow

it's not that I don't like them as (there it is again) a natural transition, but if one allows it to occur the things can riddle a poem until we have created nothing more than a list of comparisons. What are some other options, in your experience, for accomplishing the same thing without overusing those two little words?
The latest Frost example is a good one. Not only an invitation, but an integral part of the poem's structure. One of the cheapest little cheats I have used on occasion is when I have used a word or phrase that I want, but is dubious at best... I use it again... and maybe again. Instead of sneaking something by that would be giggled at by a subtle poet, I will choose to screech the thing over again.
The first time I tried this was with the word "bewared". It fit the character (Gundhag), but read like a mistake. So I used it twice in succeeding verses and it came off sounding like a character trait well used.

S

I need to give the ways to avoid overuse of those two words a bit of thought. We'll return to this at a later date. Now I can't help myself. Your reusing a wrong word over and over in order to lend it credibility...........kinda sounds like a politician I know whose last name begins with O and ends with a lol. ...............stan PS overuse of ANY word is seldom a good thing

S

Well, I can't quote or reference texts. But one method I use is to simply state that one thing is another. For example, instead of "beneath trees's shade as dense as a green canopy"...just say" beneath a canopy of green " and let the lines before or after lead the reader to realize you're talking about trees' shade. Or one could say "night's silver disc" instead of a disc as bright as silver. I'm pretty sure there's a tech phrase for doing this but I don't know what it is..............stan

wesley snow

obviously I should have mentioned this sooner... all of my poetry will have to be rewritten. Thank you Beau. I think I may buy that book.

Ian.T

Ian.T

11 years 11 months ago

Walking

It is good that you walk with me
As the autumn of our days does come
It is hard
To find that all the summers were left behind
For lost times
Then we must stay for always in this time
To hold your hand in mine
Walk the paths that are there for us
And the ones we will love for all our days
Come smile for all that they may see
There is true love in this life for me
I will hold you as we look at mountain streams
That babbles over rocks and take our dreams
To oceans arms that are always held just so
For the one’s you know
Then listen to the things, that I may babble on
As hidden deep inside there is another song
That of love for one I did find
When all my yesterdays were left behind..

Just a piece that invites another along, Yours Ian.T

Just trying to pentalate it so it may take a while..lol

S

This Is a good example of actually inviting the reader into a poem. It also makes good use of imagery in setting the stage...........stan

Rula

Rula

11 years 11 months ago

when are we going to submit from our poetry. We'll wait your instructions boss.

S

Probably the first half of next week. Appears we still have a good bit of discussion so everybody can learn some more emmersion techniques. Wouldn't hurt to hear which methods you use to connect to readers...........stan

Rula

Rula

11 years 11 months ago

of what I've already written, I've noticed that I've always used imagery rather any other technique. It has been even done unconsciously . Maybe from now on we would think of the other ways to grasp my reader's attention.

S

There's nothing wrong with using imagery. At least I hope not because my stuff is often soaked in it lol. But using it in combination with other methods is even more effective............stan

S

All of us working together give better results than any one of us trying to act like we know it all.............stan

S

OK folks
Time to get into the practical stuff. Everybody now may post one poem they've written in the past in which they feel they have Failed to make a connection with the reader. As the poems appear, feel free to comment on the poems which others submit. After a brief comment period I will assign each person another's poem to alter in a manner which allows a connection (or immersion) in said poem................stan

weirdelf

put in brackets after the title Theory of Relativity workshop.
Sometimes people comment on a poem not knowing the workshop context.

S

We are each going to post a "failed" poem then I will assign somebody else to rewrite it so that it connects with or immerses the reader..............stan

S

This part where the poetry is being posted and commented upon is when the opinions of why a poem fails in connecting is to be discussed by everybody, not just one person. The poem will later be rewritten (which might not require a lot of change) by someone other than the original author. This will assure that the changes will be made with impartial eyes and also probably show a very different way to connect than the author would have thought of..............stan

S

Let's try our best to have all poems posted by Friday evening.(Yes, I'm aware that I need to post one also lol). It appears I was a bit optomistic in thinking we could complete this shop in 3 weeks. But if we work at it maybe we can finish in 3-4 weeks. Everybody is doing great so far in exploring a difficult subject and doing a good job of helping one another, ..................stan

BlueDemon77

Off-Network

1

it could melt into madness

you saw a death on TV, did you see a murder?
complicit, explicit, dig it.....
each book you read leaves a residue
each picture too
there where inside resides a you
the winners write the books
the truth they bring they add to an array
the one accepted for today AS history
the feral truth is mystery

2

you can't have me
ever ticking clock
dessicating my fingers
as I try the lock
on a thick eye lash
over the bruise on a sunset eye
be yourself--let's defy.

Non-Acceptance of the truth you know

athletes and actors are gods en masque
models are queens of sun
Alexander, Napoleon, Mussolini, you ask?
born here to live as meat, one by one
inside the grease or for your majesties
nano and tera-mega-philosophies

a pond that lacks a ripple's start
where in this is all the heart
shores awaiting dry, thirsty
where is all the honesty
The myth of some nobility
one hope one dream one day we'd find in art

E

I agree with you that it is, at this time, a failed poem. There were a couple of instances where I thought you were going to pull me in and then you went and cut the rope.

I will try to put my finger on it and provide a more detailed explanation. But for now all I can say is that if the poem were posted on the stream, I would not have finished reading it.

Thanks,

Scott

BlueDemon77

Well, I appreciate the comment but you've given me nothing specific to address whatsoever. This is the downside of a critique-oriented approach: people tend to start making negative remarks with no specifics given, which is completely useless to the writer. While we should honestly assess everything, we should keep in mind that just ripping up work in such a general way is as worthless as giving blanket raves.

Ron

E

As I stated, I will be back with a more detailed explanation. It will have to be later this evening, though.

Thanks,

Scott

E

I told you I would return and here I am. I have read the work a 2nd, and a 3rd and a 4th time. Still unable to grasp what it is that the poem lacks, it hits me like a dull hammer swung by an infant. You state in my earlier post that I offered nothing specific to help you, but after several re-reads I believe what I offered is probably the most valuable statement I am capable of giving (take that for what it's worth). The poem simply could not hold my attention.

It reads like a rant and at times an incoherent one at that. It is also a rant that sparked no emotion inside of me. The poem did draw me in several times, but it just couldn't keep me. You lost me after "each book you read leaves a residue". At the beginning of 2, you grabbed me again momentarily, before losing me at "Non-acceptance..." One more time you teased me with "a pond that lacks a ripple's start" before dropping me for good.

I have no definitive explanation as to why I was lost at these particular lines. I wish I did, but I don't. If this is of no help to you, I apologize for you have been a valuable resource for me in these early days on Neo.

Thanks,

Scott

Rula

I came more than once to leave my thoughts why couldn't I immerse in . I believe there is a great amount of good imagery but it lacks an amount of lucidity. I feel its beauty but I can't absorb it . Dark it comes to me most of the time. I am not sure if that helps.

BlueDemon77

It is more dark than light. Its' main influence is a Canadian film called Videodrome which asks the question "if we watch a violent act on TV, do we accept it into our psyche as raw experience?" I switch lanes halfway through and it becomes about the structure of strength as an influence in accurate recording of history, then I bring myself into it as trying to unlock the lock while my hand blows away. The only thing I really love about the poem is the image "a lash over the bruise on a sunset eye" I like that one alot. I agree the poem isn't accessible as I would like, but many said the same of the film.

Thanks Rula!

Ron
BD77

S

If you haven't put this on stream yet please do so. thanks...........stan

BlueDemon77

Yeah, I put this up in the stream I belief last November. It was the only poem I did not have one response on.

Thanks,

Ron

S

It is my intention to start assigning poems to edit tomorrow (Monday) evening. I'm going to put all names in a hat . I will then draw 2 names at a time. These two will then edit each other's poems. I will do this once every two days. I think this is about as random as I can make it. By making assignments every other day I hope to give ample time for those doing the edits to do so without flooding the stream all at once.

I welcome feedback as to whether ya'll think 2 days is enough time................stan PS Actually I welcome ALL feedback lol

Ian.T

Ian.T

11 years 10 months ago

I shall edit yours when the names comes out it is written, La La, Yours all seeing Ian.

weirdelf

this is a brave workshop, you post the poems you don't feel people 'immersed', 'engaged in'.
stan is fucking good.

S

Glad to hear you're feeling up to it. I'll add you to the list. You will need to submit a poem of yours which you think doesn't connect or immerse the reader today though............stan

S

Since Mark has joined so late I left him out of this first drawing so he's have a chance to catch up. The first 2 poets whose names came out of the hat are .......dramatic drun roll.........Wesley and Beau !! So ya'll look over each others' poems and try to sumit your rewrites by sometime Wednesday. On Wednesday I will draw two more names...................stan

S

By luck of the draw you now have at least 2 more days. If you think this is not enough just holler and we might delay the drawing scheduled for Friday evening.............stan

S

Well it will be Ron and Scott who will be doing each other's rewrite. Just post on stream with author's original title. If you change title as a means of bettering immersion then put new title next followed by orig author's name and relativity worhshop rewrite. All but original title should be in parentheses. Have fun and I look forward to seeing what ya'll come up with.

In the mean time everybody should feel free to comment on the success or failure of rewrites already posted..................stan

S

It has become obvious that this last part of the workshop is going to take more time than I had thought it would. Therefore the time between drawings is going to be more dependent of how shop is progressing than it will on a set schedule. The next drawing which was scheduled for Friday will hence be moved back to at least Monday. Hopefully this will give everybody time to catch up. If not the drawing will be adjusted further.

This rewrite and commentary section is the one in which I hope we will all learn the most and I don't want to just blow through it and leave everybody saying what the heck just happended..............stan

S

No problem. I lost my mind once......but then something so small is easy to lose track of lol..............stan

S

Don't remove it but your name had not been drawn yet. This will leave your assignment on who to rewrite until the very end. I guess you'll take whoever is left after the other pairs are drawn............stan

S

Once posted they are open to comment from everybody. One person might spot a thing which does or doesn't work which another may well over look...............stan

S

So far I only see 2 rewrites. We need to get the others posted in next few days. Next drawing for pair will be tinight..................stan

S

Ok here's the final drawing........1st up is....Me. 2nd up is......Ian. This automatically leaves Rula and Mark paired off. Let's all try to get the rewrites posted by end of this week if possible....................stan

S

A work project with tight schedule came my way which left little time for having fun (You know, like being a slave driving workshop leader lol). But I'm back now and a bit surprised that not everybody has submitted their rewrites of assigned poems yet. If you haven't done so please do so soon. If you are having problems with rewriting feel free to ask for help either here or via PM............stan

S

After such a slow winter and spring businesswise It's a bit aggravating that work came in in middle of shop lol. But it is welcome whenever it comes. Just hope ya'll All are forgiving about my lack of time.........stan

Ian.T

As I have 4C damage from wear and tear I have adapted a childs desk top which puts my keyboard at an angle of about 30 degrees.
My monitor is on the top of my tower so that it is at eye level I don't have to bend my head down to type or see the monitor.
Also You can make the lettering of the site larger by changing the percentage on the right hand side of the screen when looking at a poem.
It says size plus or minus I thought I was on a winner, but it was just the print,
Mine is at 166% and I find that comfortable, Take care out there and hope this is of some use to you, Yours Ian.T

S

OK folks time to start thinking about a final phase of this shop. We are each going to combine the best of our own poem with the best parts of the rewritten versions. Start thinking about it now but don't post the results until I ask for them. In the mean time we're all still free to continue commenting on any of the rewrites.........stan

S

Everybody is doing great. Now is the time for everybody to do a final rewrite of their own poems taking the way "guest writers" wrote them. This is the portion of the shop where we'll get a chance to show what we've learned. Please post on stream seperate from the other versions so that each final write can be judged on its own merits. Put (final rewrite for relativity shop) next to title ................stan

S

I think you've all done well in a shop which I think surprised us all with its difficulty. I have posted what I think is the last of the final rewritten poems. I intend to keep shop open until next Saturday so everybody will have ample time to comment on all final revisions.

I also encourage you all to leave comments on what was done right as well as what was done wrong in this shop on this thread. Don't be shy about pointing out my shortcomings as my old hide is pretty thick. Thanks to all for participating....................stan

Rula

Rula

11 years 9 months ago

Sorry as I've really forgot to leave a comment when you announced the workshop closing. I believe you did really well but seems that it's impossible to keep everybody with the same energy they have when the workshop starts. You've promised to make it short and quick but seems it didn't work. I know it is not your fault as you've always expected and wanted more participation. I think there is no harm to add a comment here and there from those who were drifted from the dead-lines that you were always careful to set. I know you'll welcome any participation, though it might come late for some reason, won't you?
You know you did well and all words are never enough for those who devote their time and effort to
teach, so you must know all is very much appreciated.
Thank you.

S

Of course any commentary will still be welcome. I know I'm mainly to blame for loss of momentum as the real world intruded on me right in the middle of the shop and a shop can't be led well when the leader is not present. I appreciate your hanging in there in a shop which was more difficult than any of us anticipated..........stan

Description:We will discuss and use techniques which can be used that allow a reader to relate to a poem(hence relativity). Will begin with a discussion of why it's important the readers relate, go on to how this can be accomplished. Then we will each select one of our own poems which we think fails in achieving relativity. Leader next will assign another member to rewrite this poem such that it will relate to the reader. Finally each rewritten poem will be discussed dwelling on whether the rewrite succeeds in immersing the reader in the poem. I intend this to be a fast paced shop so that nobody will become bored. Thus it will be important to pay close attention to who is asked to post and when.

Leader: scribbler
Moderator(s): Jess and maybe Wes

Objectives:

Level of expertise: Open to all

Subject matter: