To serve poet.

What a great show of what they could think, how to see things differently to the norm, great shows and intelligent people.
I remember one scene of theirs where a man comes in to where a tree stump is, he puts a record on the stump and proceeds to run round and round to play the record.
Nothing to do with Norwegian Blues,
Have a great day out there, Yours Ian

Hi folks

It is pretty hard to improve without others giving their honest opinions and suggestions on our works. I hope see a bunch of people join this shop.......stan

Hi, everyone

First of all, I must confess that I have thought that critiques and comments are the same. I don't know the difference between the two. Of late however, I am beginning to wonder if that is not true. I will very much appreciate it if Jess or anyone here can tell me how do they differ.

Alid

A comment merely describes and is not helpful.

A critique points out flaws and/or means of improvement.
"Critique, don’t comment. Neopoet is primarily a workshop environment, where you can expect to receive critique of various levels."
http://www.neopoet.com/community-guidelines

I would like to participate...

I will find the time. ~ Gee

you're in

and welcome

Jess

I wish to join this Workshop.

Regards,

you are in

and most welcome of all I have received so far. I have seldom, if ever seen your offer anything but praise, without any useful suggestions for improvement.

Ok, folks, lets get started.

I will be accepting new members as the workshop progresses and the time frame is not definitive, it can continue as long as it is useful.

First the tough bit. Critical feedback has been woeful on Neopoet lately and that is a very serious problem because we are are defined as a poetry workshop, we are here to help each other improve, not just pat each other on the back. I refer to the Neopoet Community Guidelines "Critique, don't comment"
http://www.neopoet.com/community-guidelines

You can love a poem and yet find fault. Hasn't anyone else felt that the line in one of my all time favourite poems, Coleridge's Kubla Khan "Or chaffy grain beneath the thresher’s flail:" was weak?

Look hard at a poem you really like and try to find what is not quite right. You don't need a degree in poetry, a perfect understanding of rhyme, meter and imagery, your gut feelings are quite enough. Point out what feels "not quite right" even if you can't offer an alternative. But do try very hard.

How to choose the poems to critique? I'll open this up to discussion. I could assign poems from other members of the workshop or you could ask permission of another poet on Neopoet to critique their work.

Our prime purpose here is to learn that it is not just ok, it is a loving and necessary act to give critical feedback.

Questions? Suggestions?

Jess...

Just wanted to comment; You have hit the nail right on the head. I commend you for the bravery you show in wanting to keep Neo true to it's purpose. Thank you for all your hard work. ~ Gee

With your help

we will succeed.
p.s. I am a fully paid up Premium Member and make additional donations when I can.

Jess

I guess its time to take the gloves off and say what I really think, I have to confess after all these years I still find it hard to be critical of someone's poetry I hate hurting anyone's feelings so much its nearly pathological and I also confess I have read poems that people have raved about and applauded and thought what an utter piece of shit, and I am not sorry for saying that I just think its useless to get unwarranted praise it doesn't inspire you to do better or be greater in word, I have developed a sense for when someone's worked on a poem or just dashed it off on a whim, of course there are poems that are brilliant straight off the nib of the pen there are those insanely talented people that can just write a poem and it just, is, but I am a worker bee I like to play with my words much like I played with my food as a child...and unfortunately I have had to work at my poetry it didn't come easy its been a trial of sorts. learning I mean.

I would love to join the workshop but over the next few weeks my attendance would be very sporadic I have surgery and a move of house coming up and I could find time if I wasn't disrupting the flow of the shop by coming and going as time allows, give it some thought and get back to me...

I will be brutally honest but kind in commenting, its time I helped you out me thinks...sigh this is going to be painful for me in one way LOL gosh did I just say all that

love and hugs Jayne xxx

oh and cheers :P

Oh come on darls,

none of this is screaming headlines to me. I suspect it is one of your unconscious ploys when you promise to come back to a poem for further comment and never do. Classic avoidance.

You're a grown-up with well above average intelligence, talent and courage. Stop wimping out and use it.

If you submit even one serious critique to this workshop I will be deliriously happy.

Thats true

I avoid being critical because of reactions I've had in different aspects of my life, I am going to have to show you I mean what I say I guess, things have changed and so have I

lets see if I cant make you deliriously happy that would be something lol

love Jayne x

Please put me down.

I just need to get back in the groove.

In ink,
David

you're in,

looking forward to your input.

All Participants

I would like anyone to choose any of my poem/s to critique with no holds barred as far as the critique is objective in the context of this workshop. I say this not just for this workshop but anytime-during and at the conclusion of this workshop because this is what I am here for ...

Similarly, I look forward for anyone offering me to critique their poem...

Regards

any of mine

you have read and is worthy of tearing apart
for the best way to learn anatomy is
not by simulation
but physical dissection
and at your hands
o experts

too late for you for this workshop, Loved

You didn't join, you didn't participate, you didn't commit, as usual.
You would do a great deal better offering real constructive feedback on "The Stream" than whining and whinging and attention seeking.
Why do you think even my worst poems get a lot of feedback? It comes from those whose poems I have read carefully and offered cogent critique to, not pseudo-poetic gibberish.

An idea

I reckon we all have written a poem which we think is pretty good yet lacks something to make it cross over to being almost great. But we're too close to our own work to spot exactly what is either wrong or missing. Why not have each participant post a poem of his own which he/she Knows needs something but can't pin point what is wrong with it? By doing so each participant will, in effect, be starting the critique of said poem merely by posting it. Also by showing that he/she Knows it needs something, it should leave others feeling more free to give honest feedback to a poem which the author is Begging to get help with.
Perhaps instead of assigning a person or persons to give the critique it would be better to allow a limited amount of time for All to offer up ideas.
The only assignment that would be needed would be assigning an order in which each participant would post their poem for comment............stan

Stan

That's a good suggestion as well. I think we need for Jess to take a call on how to go about this so that all participants know how to proceed..

Regards,

Stan

I like the idea and will try to get back to everyone when I can. A little busy with family after some unexpected things happened.

Alid

Good call Stan,

I agree. If we settle on this, be brave! Choose a poem you really like.

Great idea...

Stan. I think that this might really work. ~ Gee

criticism is a bite that is

criticism is a bite that is both the sting of a bee and its honey,its majorly for professionals who can deduce and also help to upgrade in core poetic functionalism, and of course a better poet is only a better critique, but there are those who are static on criticism than even writing for they prefer it more, but what-ever class one falls to , never rest on the laurel proceeding but soar, in this you would fine much improvement both to you and the community you hope to impart , then of course criticism becomes the messiah

As I said in the syllabus, emeka,

a degree in poetry is not required. As poets we know when something jars or feels wrong. Do your very best to offer suggestions for improvement.

I was tempted to take this as a personal criticism

As I critique more often than I post original poetry. And I do have an Master of Arts in poetry. Unfortunately Neopoet since the major crash does not contain my full body of work. Yet I stand by my record. I am not a major poet, never claimed to be, but my work is good enough to have achieved an MA at a serious University, it has also been published in hard copy poetry journals.
Please do not demean me as a "critic". As a serious and informed poet I offer serious critique.

Jess

Please inform as to when do we get started and where do we post our poem for inviting critique from other participants...

Regards,

I vote for Stan's suggestion verbatim.

http://www.neopoet.com/comment/104228#comment-104228

Each participant post to the workshop a poem that they feel is good yet needs help.
Each participant is free to offer critique. The only requirement that they identify a problem with the poem and where at a ll humanly possible offer suggestions.

First in, first served. If a discussion becomes a debate or over-long the critique will end and the next volunteer will post their poem for critique. NB, when posing a poem to the workshop please add (To Serve Poet- Workshop) to the title and VERY VERY IMPORTANT, SCROLL DOWN TO THE BOTTOM OF THE POEM SUBMISSION PAGE AND SELECT "To Serve Poem" from the Workshop drop-down list.

Imagine we are drinking absinthe in Paris, discussing our work passionately, the Beats arguing fiecely, the Mersey Sound Liverpuddians hilariously changing the world. We can not meet in person but we can meet in mind.

Hey everybody

Before Jess gets cranked up with this shop let me clarify something if I may. There is often a negative connotation attached to the word "critique". This might be because so many critics only tell folks what's Bad about something. But true critique should offer both ideas for change in order to improve something as well as a detailed explanation of why a critic Likes some parts of a thing. Indeed I sometimes come across a poem which I find no fault in. When this happens and time allows, I like to tell the writer specifically what about their poem I like. Could be good use of metaphor, exacting rhyme or rhythm, vivid imagery, exceptional story line, subtle but apparent secondary meaning...all kinds of things can lead to enjoying a poem. So don't only tell a writer what the are doing wrong, also tell them what they are doing right...both are critique..............stan

All good Stan, and very true.

However finding no room for improvement is not in the scope of this shop. If the poem is perfect, choose another.

We are here to learn the courage and skills by mutual example to help each other improve our works.

The more experienced I hope will lead by example, pointing out errors in meter, awkward or misstressed rhyme, clche and other common errors.

Stan

That's good to hear!

Alid

Who will volunteer to jump in first?

Perhaps it should be me. All poems posted to the workshop can be found at

Most recent poems
>> View all poems submitted to this workshop
http://www.neopoet.com/workshop/view/14245

Go hard at my poem "Inauthentic" (To Serve Poet)
http://www.neopoet.com/workshop/poems/inauthentic-serve-poet-workshop

Jess

you seem to have overlooked to suffix "Inauthentic" with the workshop tag to identify it as a poem posted in workshop...just an observation I thought i need to bring to your notice..

Regards,

thanks Raj, well spotted.

fixed.

Jess & Stan - Query

Good inputs / guidelines provided by both of you. Please confirm if the logical end to a poem being critiqued would be when the participant incorporates the suggestions acceptable to him / her and suffixes the title with something like - "Final Updated". I feel this would provide a cue for the next participant to post his / her poem in the workshop...

Regards,

goood suggestion Raj, we are under way now.

We'll keep it loose and as a critique draws to a close ask for another submission.

Hi, everyone

I've posted mine, forgetting to check if other's turn are in session. Please check on the one posted earlier first as I don't mean to forgo his turn. I believe it's Ian's " Hello!". Pardon this silly student.

Alid

I couldn't identify the poem you have posted for this workshop. Have you suffixed the title to ini\dicate that it is posted for this workshop?

Regards,

Raj

It's entitled "The Little Rose". I've made the edit and now its on the right side of the workshop.

Alid

Three poems ready to crit,

Hello! (To Serve Poet) by Ian.T
http://www.neopoet.com/workshop/poems/hello-serve-poet
Inauthentic (To Serve Poet workshop) by weirdelf
http://www.neopoet.com/workshop/poems/inauthentic-serve-poet-workshop
DEAD PINE (brought back for "serving poet" shop) by Scribbler
http://www.neopoet.com/workshop/poems/dead-pine-brought-back-serving-po…

Please remember to check new postings regularly at
http://www.neopoet.com/workshop/view/14245

The link is near top right of his page-

Most recent poems
blah blah
>> View all poems submitted to this workshop

Lets give these a good working before we post more, ok?

Post here if you want yours next, they will be done in the order they're offered.

Four more poems ready to crit

This is showing me already that this workshop is serving a dire need on Neopoet.

The Little Rose (To Serve A Poet)
http://www.neopoet.com/workshop/poems/little-rose-serve-poet

Reverend Director - V... To Serve Poets Workshop
http://www.neopoet.com/workshop/poems/reverend-director-v-serve-poets-w…

Hidden Love (To Serve Poet)
http://www.neopoet.com/workshop/poems/hidden-love-serve-poet

Deceit (Serve A Poet WS)
http://www.neopoet.com/workshop/poems/deceit-serve-poet-ws

poems

Hey guys just letting you know I've spent most of today in a great deal of pain I'll be round tonight to start leaving my critiques on the poems for the shop, Ian and Jess I've already started on yours...night or morning I'm going to try and sleep

Love Jayne she

Jayne

Please take time to heal, there is no point in you being here and in pain, there are plenty of poets that can type and comment.
I have said for a long time if a poet can stream a poem then they can also critique others.
If they can't critique others then there are many poetry sites they can put their works.
There is no need young lady for you to be suffering in being here, you go and rest and when you return we will know that you are better, and we can then look forward to some more of your excellent works,
Yours as always, Ian x

Hey sis

Pain is likely the result of reading too many of my scribbles lol. Sorry, joking is a coping mechanism. I hope your cause for pain is short lived (unless the cause Is me lol) there I go again. Take your time in healing, we'll all still be here.........stan

Dearest Jayne

Please take best care and get well and sprightly soon.

much love and big hugs...

Jayne

Don't stressed yourself out too much, dear.Take care

Love
Alid

Some more poems awaiting critique

Tempestuous (To Serve Poet WS)
Submitted by eightmenout
http://www.neopoet.com/workshop/poems/tempestuous-serve-poet-ws

To Serve- An Empty Revolver
Submitted by IKnowNoBox
http://www.neopoet.com/workshop/poems/serve-empty-revolver

post here you would like more ritique of your poem and also feel free to critique the critique. How helpful was it?

time to get involved (if you'll have me)

Any chance of a try at this one?

Ian

Hey Ian

You are welcome in. I'll check if I can list you although I'm just a moderator. If not, Jess will get you on soon. You can begin by adding any thoughts on critique you have to this thread then start giving such to shop poems. Might be a good idea to wait a couple of days before posting your shop poem..........stan

glad to have you, me old mate

remember it is a critique workshop so it is more important to give it than get it.

OK guys

I have gotten a total of THREE new critiques on my poem Dead Pine. Now I Know it needs more help than that...............stan

..

What a great idea. More than happy to join, if you'll have me.

sorry to take so long to reply Violet

I've been ill.
You're very welcome.
Remember when you post any poems to the workshop to add "(To serve poet)" to the title and to tick the workshop name at the bottom of the 'submit poem' page. Also please have a look through the others poems already posted at
http://www.neopoet.com/workshop/view/14245
and add your critique.

Sorry to be absent folks

I've been very unwell but getting better. I should be able to sit up at the computer for longer tomorrow. In the meantime please everyone check out the new workshop postings at
http://www.neopoet.com/workshop/view/14245
and add your critiques.

And don't forget you are encouraged to critique the critiques on your own poems and ask for more specific feedback.

New submissions are now closed. The next stage is very important

Please go back to the poem you posted, check the critique and critique the critique. Explain what you need and want from the critique.

Also go back to each critique you have posted, see the responses to it and how you could improve it.

Without wanting to sound grandiose I believe this is one of the most important things we can do to help maintain Neopoet as the very best poetry workshop on the web.

Also please return here

and add your general observations and arguments about what is useful critique and how it should be structured.

Greetings all shop members

Due to unforeseen reasons this shop which opened with no closing date will now only last another 10 days or so. So stop putting off critiqueing the critiques as well as adding your thoughts about critique to this thread................stan

all the poems submiited can be found at

http://www.neopoet.com/workshop/view/14245

Go for it! This the final and most important stage.

Also post here your thoughts on critique in general and how it can be improved.

A few thoughts derived from this shop dealing with critique

1, Ya'll know most people tend to dwell on Giving critique. But there's also the other half of critique's equation :receiving and responding to critique. First and foremost we OWE it to anybody who tries to help us the minimum of a recognition of the time they spent trying to help. That's just being polite. Heck, even if their suggestion might not work in that particular poem, their insight might be useful in a future one.

2. Interpretation. It is almost impossible to totally put yourself in the mind of another writer and thus be 100% certain what they are trying to convey. So if you get a suggestion which seems out of line for your poem don't be dismayed. Or if you give a suggestion which isn't used, again, don't be dismayed. It may well be because of the way a poem is interpreted.

3. In depth vs. minor critique. Wouldn't it be nice if every comment we got was an in depth critique on all aspects on our poem? But we all read under time constraints and such a well thought out critique takes a Lot of time and thought. When you Do get one, treasure it and give it very serious consideration.. We all seldom have time to give this kind of critique though. So don't be ashamed to give even just one constructive comment and don't be ashamed to give one. Over time even a number of single suggestions adds up.

4. To all folks on both sides of giving or receiving critique... Be polite at all times. One can be honest and even blunt in giving and acknowleging critique. But always remember that we're supposed to be helping one another. And being rude leads to fighting and fighting leads to worse things the least of which is being ignore when trying to help.

That's all. Hope I didn't bore ya'll too much.........stan

Great summation Stan! Thanks.

How about the format for specific suggestions?

To be honest mate, I still have a bit of a problem with your approach. Could this be a computer skills thing?
It is so easy to click and drag to select a line, Hit Ctrl C to copy it, click into the Comment text box and hit Ctrl V to paste it, then paste it again and make the suggested revision in the second copy. This way the poet doesn't have to scroll up and down to find verse 2 line 3 etc. and they can compare the suggestion directly to the original.

Yeah

I was just getting to where I was almost comfortable with cut and paste then my comp crashed. And for me that 2 weeks of lack of practice took me right back out of my being comfortable with it lol. But I'm back to practicing it again because that one skill is so useful. The S1,l-4 type thing is still OK for 2 or 3 suggestions I think. But the total rewrite is superior( with an asterisk beside affected lines). You may yet see the day when I master that skill and maybe even one or two more.............stan

TO ALL PARTICIPANTS

we are drawing to a close here but first please read all the submissions at-
http://www.neopoet.com/workshop/view/14245
and offer your critique.
Remember to reply to critiques given either to thank them, accept or reject them and make appropriate revisions, or tell them to fuck off, politely.

Just a hint, this particular workshop many have particular ramifications which will be revealed shorty.

Option One.

1 First slaughter the beast.
2. Skin very carefully, poet's hides vary between very thick and very, very thin.
3. Remove all choice cuts of flesh, they can be useful.
4. Remove all organs. -The brain provides delicious varied tastes, ranging from the delicate and sweet to chewy and shrivelled lumps of bitterness.
5. The heart is the prime choice, often disguised but always huge, sometimes misplaced.
6. Avoid the liver, it is often diseased.

Option Two.

1. Description: To help each other improve our poetry.
2. Each participant will choose a participant's poem and offer positive feedback and then offer positive suggestions for improvement.
3. Note: This is very important. If you offer specific suggestions the poet is free to use them verbatim or not, as they choose. This is because when fine tuning a poem the specific word choice becomes limited and we do not want to limit the poet's options by trying to find alternatives. It is not plagiarism, it is collaboration.

Leader: Jess (weirdelf)
Moderator(s): scribbler, eightmenout

Objectives: No poem is perfect, suggest improvements and help your peers improve their poem. You may choose more than one poem but only one at a time. Each poet is encouraged to critique the critiques of their work, especially noting what was helpful and asking for more specific input.

Level of expertise: Open to all

Subject matter: Critique.