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By scribbler, 21 April, 2015
Participants
scribbler
judyanne
wesley snow
Sparrow
Rula
China Blue
alidzain
Skill level
Olympic Pool
Date
-
Short description
Will begin with a discussion of titles and their place in poetry. Will likely also have a few short exercises during the discussion phase. Next, each participant will submit a poem without a title. Can be a new poem or existing poem.Each participant will
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then suggest a title and all suggestions will be debated. Two days will be allocated per poem at this stage. Finally the participants will either choose a suggested title for their poem or post a title of their own based on the group's input. This will be a heavily participant driven shop whose main goal will be to get folks to think of more than one possibility when titling their own poems.

S

Titles, the smallest part of a poem and often most neglected. But maybe they should be thought of as the bait on the hook which draws in a reader to start reading. They can also define a poem and/or at least give a hint as to any secondary meaning in a poem. I'll now shut up and let ya'll give your ideas on what a good title can accomplish......stan

China Blue

It irks me to no end to see a poem posted Untitled" seems to me if you are able to write an entire poem then you should be able to find a title

A title is the first line a reader will see
as for myself any title such as "love" I pass right up . You need something that will catch the eye of your reader It is the same as finding the "hook" of a song(which I write both lyrics and music)

Being the first line it must be interesting enough to draw the readers attention, the first line holds them but that is another story

If you saw a title such as Darkness , would you stop to read it eh I might,, or how about "My DOG "(nope wouldn't stop there either) OR lOVE BLEH DO YOU REALIZE HOW MANY POEMS HAVE THAT TITLE

but then you see something like Leaving Daylight would that be enough to catch your eye

Ah but there are times where you find an interesting title that has nothing to do with the poem, but it did catch your eye and make you wonder what the poem was about. I have used this trick myself

when mentoring and when I taught I lean very heavily on the title and first line of a poem if neither brings the reader in

are we up to the part yet on how we might find titles or would I be jumping ahead

Oh I also used to ask ppl here and in my class
'IF YOU MADE A CHILD , WHY WOULD YOU NEGLECT TO NAME THAT CHILD , OR IF YOU HAD GOTTEN A Pet WOULDN'T YOU WANT TO NAME IT?here I woulds like to say I once had a dog that I named cat and a cat that I named dog and another cat named John lol point I was making I didn't just call then hey you

oooppps sorry I am getting carried away aren't I lol an untitled work is my pet peeve you can always find a title and most time it is right there under your nose

sTAN YOU WENT AND GOT ME ALL REVVED UP FIRST THING IN THE MORNING.
apologies caps button keeps sticking

anyway what is boils down to is your title is the first words on that page so it has to have enough flash to make the reader stop and look a bit further into the poem
can ya'll tell I am very passionate about titles and first lines

S

There have been a few times that I'd write a poem which i thought was pretty good and wanted a title worthy of and descriptive of the poem but couldn't think of a title so I'd post it untitled. But I'd also request ideas for the title. Seldom do I use a suggested title but seeing other's ideas "loosens up" the ol' titling mechanism and a good title then comes about.

Interesting your mention of stand alone titles. Some of my (I think) best poetry came about as the result of a title popping into my head and then writing a poem to match the titles lol.

I have a bit more I could say but don't want to dominate the conversation until everybody joins in.....stan

PS While we await others why don't we all think up a really intriguing title and post it?.......hmmmm......."Within These Familiar Hills"

wesley snow

I hate titles.
Not because they don't enhance a poem, but rather because I can't make them.
I always title them by the form as you would in music.
One of my favorite musical piece is Mozart's "sonata in c minor". So I name my poetry thus: a villanelle, a kyrielle, a sonnet... and so on.
Above is my title.

S

can be a real pain at times. But almost any title is more memorable than something like " Quatrain # 23". In my opinion the perfect title hooks the reader, is a hint to what the poem is about and also reveals whether a poem has a subtext. That's asking a LOT of a title so even achieving one of the above is OK. I like your title (I prefer my own be a bit shorter but that's just a personal quirk). Now you've come up with a title you have a good start on any poem that could go along with it......stan

Rula

readers that the title drew them in...and they were disappointed or just the opposite. So, I think it is the title's function is to attract the readers to come and read. A successful title in my opinion is the one that gives a pretty good idea to the reader on what he is going to read about rather than eludes him or her. Some just choose their first line to lable the piece which is not a bad idea especially if the theme or the message is part of it.

Does this tell that I am in Stan? Please, if you may

S

I think I've used a last line as a title once. And I've seen a first and last line used as a title pretty often. And like you I think it's effective sometimes. Now you need to come up with a title for some poem which hasn't been written but the title needs to be intriguing......stan

China Blue

I find that I will write my poem first then draw the title from the body of the poem. To me this is the easiest way to find a title In music this is called the hook and usually will be repeated throughout

whether it reflects the body or not the title must bring the persons eye to the poem
the first line usually will reveal the content
a title will(if you will) slap ypu and say HI READ ME
first line (THANK YOU NOW THAT I HAVE YOUR ATTENTION) LOL AND SO ON

THE FINISH OF THE POEM NEEDS TO BE STRONG AND NOT FALL FLAT BUT THAT IS ANOTHER WORKSHOP

not going to retype ignore the caps please

Stan could you please add Rula and I to the list (Big Smile) thank you

can you tell I am habing a good day for a change lol

S

Yep, the main purpose of a title is to bait the reader. Using the title to do anything else is just gravy. I thought I Had added your name....must have hit wrong button

wesley snow

You must "be able to jump up and down on it". Meaning the title and first line don't just draw the reader in, but they must be good. Write something poorly and you will lose them on the fourth or fifth line.
The poetry must be good or everyone is wasting their time.

S

is more than the sum of its parts but the better the parts the better the poem can be. In this shop series we're going to assume participants can already write the main body well. But the parts of a good poem most likely to be recalled and thus call the reader back time after time is likely to be either the title, the beginning or the end. Especially in a long poem.
We're starting with titles and if this title shop is good enough perhaps people will hang around for at least one of the two following shops lol..........stan

China Blue

Is that our next assignment to come up with a title or are we awaiting more people

S

really, just something to fill in time while awaiting everybody's ideas on titles.

But this might be a good time to start thinking about first assignment which will be to submit one of your poems whose title you're not happy with or a new poem which has no title......stan

Sparrow

Usually sits there at the head of the table letting all know what to look for, or the thoughts going through the poets mind.
Who would like to title Eskers pieces, then read the thoughts aloud, not sure many would cope.
Are they titles to nudge you into his ways or just an idea that has crept in, must ask him one day??
I title all of my bits as I call them, but some have said that it gives away the plot/theme sometimes.
Numbers have been used if you take that the psalms are poetry, then the chapters of the years by Nostradamus they never made sense as no year was mentioned, numerous quatrains that everyone tries to interpret into seeing into the future.
I have written quite a few pieces on the North American Indians Myths and most are title with the name of the group they belong to, I like to write about what they did so it is only sense to title the tribe first then write of them.
I will stay as I am and title all my writes as it seems the best of things,
Yours Ian

S

I think in epic poetry it might be a good idea to have both a title and number which would divide the poem into manageable pieces. It would make it both easier to digest and also make it a bit easier to find one's place in event the bookmark falls our. Good thought I'd have not had............stan

R

raj

10 years ago

Titles could be similar to Road Signs indicating "Take it or leave it"

A woman with a heavy make up may catch the eye like a hooker, may or may not be as good as the deceptive looks. Having said that...it's true that beauty lies in the eyes of the beholder...so a not very alluring title for some may be quite appealing to some others..

Contrary to above some attempt to catch attention by always having the title in Capital Letters which may not be necessary when the reader can make out that the poem is very likely to be good by merely reading the name of the poet ..

I am not sure if a poet would like the title to be changed other than his/her own choice just like their own first names..so not sure if suggestions (unless requested) for change of the title which I understand is one of the objectives of this WS would be acceptable to the poet...especially if they are picky n choosy or obstinate.....

it would therefore be interesting to keep tabs on how this WS progresses...

S

Now which poet might you be referring to who capitalizes his titles? For some reason I started out doing it that way (I likely saw it done elsewhere) then just continued on doing it due to inertia.

Now as to changing titles......At last count I think I've written about 900 poems and only changed title ...maybe.....6-7 times. I don't want to be perceived as trying to "trick" people into reading a poem again by changing titles. As far as this shop goes any title change suggestions will only take place on poems with which the writer is displeased with their title and are seeking ideas for improving. And the changes suggested are mainly meant to spur the original writer to come up with an improved title themselves. I'll be a bit surprised if any suggest title are used word for word. BTW, you need to let me know if you want to join shop. You're welcome to drop by in either case but can't fully participate if not a shop member

R

Ok..I will drop in ..but appreciate that it wouldn't be fair to comment if I am not part of the WS..so i won't comment any further than I have already done...

Wishing all participants the very best of experience...

China Blue

The idea as I see it of this workshop is not to change peoples titles , that we as a reader do not like

we may suggest a change , or there are those that do not use a title or ask for help with one , or state they do not like their own title

the purpose is to learn how to find better titles for our own work for example if I see a poem that says untitled I will suggest titles, if I see a title like "Love" or Hate" that does not draw my eye I will suggest changing the title and I always state that they are mere suggestions and not set in stone

I'm sure once the workshop progresses you will see why the workshop is here.

S

The purpose of this shop is to get people to give more thought to their own titles by letting others show there are many possibilities for any given poem..........stan

Sparrow

I streamed a piece the other day, then a space of no comments so I edited it, and added that the poem would self destruct in 6 hours I had two comments very quickly, I then reverted to the original title,
Since doing that no more comments, lol.
See what people mean when they say a poems title has to catch the eye..
Yours, Ian

S

pressed for time when I saw the self destruct notice and still haven't managed to read it. Keep it up because there apparently Do come spells when a bunch of people are distracted by the real world. (the self destruct notice was brilliant)........stan

R

raj

10 years ago

I appreciate what you are saying. They were merely my thoughts and no more

Regards,

S

are the people who would suggest an actual title without being invited. They might say a title is weak but I don;t know anybody who would be so bold as to say "You should change your title to thus.......)

wesley snow

Like you Stan, I have been looking through some old stuff (900 poems?... geez whiz!... alright I'll see your 900 and give you 24,000 lines in my big poem... I think that makes use even).
Some of what I found was extraordinarily good, some was embarrassing. I've only written about 40 to 50 small poems. Through it all I bet I had six or seven good titles. Most are either bad or "a villanelle" or " a sonnet" and on.
Teach me. The above is a title I think might work for a poem I wrote.

Why yes, of course I've written a vampire poem... I'd love to read yours.

S

werewolves and all that kind of stuff? Between social media, movies and TV I'm about sick of them lol. But just to show I Can, maybe I'll come up with something in the next few days,
Now as to teaching about titles....next time you write something you might try converting the poem to a Haiku or Senryu. This will get you on track to further condensing the poem to a title.

Of course this won't work in the instances in which a title is used to mislead a reader in order to insert a 'twist" within the poem (often for humor). 2.4 x10 to the 3rd lines.........man! Beowulf eat your heart out

alidzain

instead of using the form of the poem, why don't you try to do what chrys do. Write the poem than decide the title based on its essence or contents as in the message behind it. If its about trying to write the form than entitled it something like for eg "Writing A Villanelle" instead of just "Villanelle".

Alid

S

So lets move on to posting our poems which need either a title or a better title. Can be an old poem or a new one. Do Not Post until called upon. This will give each participant's poem at least 2 days to gather suggestions for a title. Post your untitled poem on stream with Only "Title workshop" in the title section. Then each member can read it and leave a suggestion or suggestions for a good title......stan

OK China Blue, why not begin with you?

China Blue

sorry for the delay just returned from my check up
all is well and progressing nicely

judyanne

You're in Alid :)

It seems everyone but Stan has suggested a title for Chrys.... so maybe we'd better move on without him....

Rula, are you there? Would you like to post your poem?

xxx

S

is finally back. Comp virus (the kind which pretends to be FBI and demands a fine be paid before restoring computer) froze up comp and I just got it back from the shop......I'd have let you know but no comp= no Pm or e-mail

weirdelf

That said my poems often end in a different place that what I intended. Thus the title needs changing. I try to use a title that often comes from the text, but my sense of mischief often comes into play and I choose something that whilst not be deliberately misleading sometimes refers to an aspect of the poem that might well... not mislead, but point to aspect of the poem that changes its overall 'umwelt', thus allowing the reader free choice to its overall meaning.
A dirt trick? Perhaps a useful one.

China Blue

anyone heard from Stan yet ?

judyanne

I hope he's ok..... let's hope he's just having computer problems...

We seem to be waiting for Ian to suggest a title for Rula's poem....

In the meantime, perhaps you might like to submit your poem now Wes?
xxx

S

is next. In the event I wind up gone again we're choosing people in reverse order in which they joined the shop. With the exception of Alid who joined late and will thus be last since the "countdown" had already begun. Appreciate your filling in for me Judy.

Rula

Rula

9 years 12 months ago

Submitted under Judyanne's request

S

Nice to know my abscense didn't slow things down much

China Blue

glad that was all it was
but not glad for the virus

judyanne

We won't wait for Stan to say....
it would seem everyone's suggested a title for Wes' s poem....it's your turn to submit yours
xxx

S

My comp had no anti-virus downloaded at shop so limiting time on line. Should be back full time Sunday evening

China Blue

HELLOHELLOhellohello Iannnnnnnnnnnn

Sparrow

Must be those children again, they is always waking me ups.
I thinks I had better switch to Neopoet,
I am sure there's something I is sposed to do..
Big Girls! well that's a thing to come out of my cave for, but as I is in a spirit form, tis a bit awkward to do, other than make words up into lines and things.
Oh! that's what you woke me for, damn I have to write everything down as you can't do think..
OK, ok, I has done it and put it some place.
Though as I is still tired I didn't write a newdy one for you all, hope you don't mind,
I have to go find the children they is very busy.
Take care out there and be good, I is off for a now or two,
Yours as always, Ian xxx

China Blue

This gave me a good laugh I needed one

wesley snow

Don't forget Pugilist's workshop in the Shark Pool. It begins on the eighth and looks to be quite a ride.
Please join the new Shark Pool. No harsh critique, just seriously complex subjects.
Like an Elizabethan sonnet or haiku. Fast.
The Shark Pool is where you want to be.

S

Back fully on line. Judy and Jess, my apple comp accepts very few free anti-virus things. I'm now on Norton and hope it does well. Let vmd check and see where things stand in this shop (I thank Judy and everybody else who has kept this going while I was gone). To keep things ticking on along, anybody who has not yet posted an un-titled poem go ahead and do so. The ones who have already posted and received suggestions for titles now need to take suggestions under consideration and decide on a title for their own poem. You can use a suggested title or come up with one of your own using the suggested titles for inspiration. I'll post my untitled poem Monday.

Now once all poems have been posted with their final titles we'll discuss the author's choice of titles. I apologize again for my not being here as I should have........stan

S

waiting why don't we post an alternate title to a classic poem? How about Frost's "Stopping By The Woods On a snowy Evening" which has always seemed a bit long to me.

I'll start with "As Snow Falls"
here's the poem:

Whose woods these are I think I know
his house is in the village though
he will not see me stopping here
to watch his woods fill up with snow.

My little horse must think it queer
to stop without a farmhouse near
between the woods and frozen lake
the darkest evening of the year.

He gives his harness bells a shake
to ask if there is some mistake
the only other sound's the sweep
of easy wind and downy flake

The woods are lovely, dark and deep
but I have promises to keep
and miles to go before I sleep
and miles to go before I sleep

Rula

Rula

9 years 11 months ago

ever paid enough attention to their titles or if they only make their first/ first few lines decide it all
May be
"Late Wonderments"
"Late Wanders"

S

There's a great deal of unspoken stuff going on in this as well as a lot of poetry. A short title such as the one I suggested only covers part of it. It left out the pause in the midst of haste in going to fill one of many promises. It doesn't mention it being the Christmas season. Perhaps Bob threw up his hands and said "I gotta title it Something, so I'll let this do" (better than "Winter Poem Number 15" which Wes might have used lol)

S

But see how hard it is to cover everything in a poem with just a title, especially a short one?

S

resorting to making up words(I think)? lol. Although your meaning is clear. This poem has little to Really do with winter although set in the depth of that season and works well on only that surface level.
This brings up another thing to consider. Just how much should a title reveal and whether it's best to leave a lot about a poem for the reader to root out?.........stan

Sparrow

Sometimes the storms catch people out in the cold as you will know, I wonder if the man ever made it home, there are many ends to this poem and it leaves the reader out there in the cold to think of home and did he make it.
Those two last lines:-
and miles to go before I sleep
and miles to go before I sleep
To me is a reminder of Canada and its way of catching people out.
I would like to see it called Sorry or something like that for not arriving home..
Yours, Ian

S

particular poem is the first one I remember (other than nursery rhymes). It was recited at JFK's funeral and in that context it relayed the feeling of promises to keep which would, sadly, go unkept. In my opinion it makes the "poem" recited at Obama's first inauguration seem like random words recited by force................stan BTW where's your title for it?

S

everybody has pretty much finished up the exercises so now it's time for authors to post their poems with their title choices. Reckon it needs to have something like (title shop title selection) next to title. Everybody should then comment on this final title choice..........stan

Sparrow

The title was "Sorry" it was hidden in my write on that poem.
Yours as always, Ian

China Blue

didn't we already do this when we posted our poems without the titles?

I di post a poem and used the title JudyAnne suggested

S

don't think it possible to comment on the final title until it has been chosen and posted

S

I hope this quickie shop has been helpful in getting us all to put a bit more thought into our titles. If anybody has any more commentary to post here or on any participant's final titles please do so in next couple of days. It's my intention to close shop Wednesday evening. Thank you all for participating and keep your eyes open for the next shop in this three part series which will deal with good beginnings.........stan

Description:

Leader: scribbler
Moderator(s): judyanne

Objectives:Improving poetry by more effective use of titles

Level of expertise: Open to all

Subject matter: Titles and their effect