weirdelf
By weirdelf, 31 August, 2011
Participants
weirdelf
themoonman
scribbler
ephraim crud
Kailashana2
yenti
Tam the Chanter
wesley snow
Skill level
Shark Pool
Plunge Pool
Date
-
Short description
We examine the four most important types of meter to help everyone develop an ear for the natural meter of language. Final goal is to produce an "ostranenie" poem.
Eduardo Cruz

I want to be a part of this, but right now my time is limited. Please let me know how I can work this. I have maybe two days I can work into my week.

Eddie

looking forward to this workshop if my time is avalible.

Hooded Stranger

Hooded Stranger

13 years 8 months ago

The Plunge Pool is specific to all levels of skill, whereas the Shark Pool is...well for sharks!!

Jess will be a "Plunging Shark" for this workshop.

cheers,

HS

S

When do you intend to start?

weirdelf

but lets start talking now.

Don't be put off by the word ostranenie,
all I mean is that we will try to write about ordinary things in specific meter without trying to write poetry.
The results are often astoundingly creative

weirdelf

that I am the best critic of meter on Neopoet. It's usually the best advice I give. That said this workshop will be a learning thing for all of us because I have given it little formal study. It's in the "ear", which is a pretty wish-washy thing to say, but a lifetime of reading and writing poetry has attuned my ear.

The most important thing I can say about meter at this stage is that it is choosing language that naturally fits the stresses of the English language.

We will look at two basic forms, that are basically interchangeable, iambic and trochaic (da DUM and DUM da). It gets a bit more complicated with polysyllabic words that have two unstressed syllables, but we'll deal with that when we come to it.

For our first exercise, write 4 lines in Iambic Pentamter (da DUM da DUM da DUM da DUM da DUM ) describing the way to the corner shop.

Don't post yet! There seems to be a tech clich on posting to this workshop, hang in there or post on this page

MichelleK

Is excellent for meter and verse forms, really helps put it into perspective. A friend gave it to me as a gift and I haven't put it down!

I recommend it to anyone whose interested in experimenting with meter and verse forms.

MichelleK

x = stressed OR short syllable , o = unstressed OR long syllable

Iamb = xo (DA dum/ TA tum)

Trochee = ox (dum Da/ tum TA)

Dactyl = oxx (dum Da-Da/ tum TA-TA)

Anapest/Anti-dactyl= xxo (Da-Da Dum/ Tit-ty tum)

______________________

Tetrameter = a certain foot four times in one line.

Anapestic tetrameter:
"And the sheen of their spears was like stars on the sea" (Byron, "The Destruction of Sennacherib")

Iambic tetrameter:
"Because I could not stop for Death" (Emily Dickinson)

Trochaic tetrameter:
"Peter, Peter, pumpkin-eater" (English nursery rhyme)

Dactylic tetrameter:
Picture your self in a boat on a river with [...] (The Beatles, "Lucy in the Sky with Diamonds"),

SEE: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tetrameter

Pentameter: a certain foot five times per line.

SEE: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iambic_pentameter

weirdelf

Let's get Iambic and Trochaic down and deal with polysyllabic stresses when we need to. Remember Iambic and Trochaic are virtually interchangeable, with truncated first or last syllables, and longer words ... well that comes later.

Though we should all try to remember that stresses don't have to include one word and can cross several syllables. Then we deal with caesura!

[evil laugh]

weirdelf

I will not stay calm.

Well, maybe a little bit.

This is important.

Too much bad poetry is posted because morons who never read poetry post "from the heart".
That's not poetry, it's a maudlin sewing circle.

If you can't hear the sound of your words you are not writing poetry.

weirdelf

where it works and where it doesn't.
The beauty of the English language is that it is the most flexible by far. You Can translate other languages to English but not necessarily the other way.

Meter is the most definitive form of English, as tonality is in Chinese and verbal length is in French. Try rhyming in Italian or Japanese, fuckin' hopeless. English lacks Chinese tonality, but that is hard to print on a page.

So lets work on our strengths, the ones we don't even recognize. Stress.

K

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nwcP3NOCeiE&feature=related

The Hollow Men

I

We are the hollow men
We are the stuffed men
Leaning together
Headpiece filled with straw. Alas!
Our dried voices, when
We whisper together
Are quiet and meaningless
As wind in dry grass
Or rats’ feet over broken glass
In our dry cellar

Shape without form, shade without colour,
Paralysed force, gesture without motion;

Those who have crossed
With direct eyes, to death’s other Kingdom
Remember us—if at all—not as lost
Violent souls, but only
As the hollow men
The stuffed men.

II

Eyes I dare not meet in dreams
In death’s dream kingdom
These do not appear:
There, the eyes are
Sunlight on a broken column
There, is a tree swinging
And voices are
In the wind’s singing
More distant and more solemn
Than a fading star.

Let me be no nearer
In death’s dream kingdom
Let me also wear
Such deliberate disguises
Rat’s coat, crowskin, crossed staves
In a field
Behaving as the wind behaves
No nearer—

Not that final meeting
In the twilight kingdom

III

This is the dead land
This is cactus land
Here the stone images
Are raised, here they receive
The supplication of a dead man’s hand
Under the twinkle of a fading star.

Is it like this
In death’s other kingdom
Waking alone
At the hour when we are
Trembling with tenderness
Lips that would kiss
Form prayers to broken stone.

IV

The eyes are not here
There are no eyes here
In this valley of dying stars
In this hollow valley
This broken jaw of our lost kingdoms

In this last of meeting places
We grope together
And avoid speech
Gathered on this beach of the tumid river

Sightless, unless
The eyes reappear
As the perpetual star
Multifoliate rose
Of death’s twilight kingdom
The hope only
Of empty men.

V

Here we go round the prickly pear
Prickly pear prickly pear
Here we go round the prickly pear
At five o’clock in the morning.

Between the idea
And the reality
Between the motion
And the act
Falls the Shadow
For Thine is the Kingdom

Between the conception
And the creation
Between the emotion
And the response
Falls the Shadow
Life is very long

Between the desire
And the spasm
Between the potency
And the existence
Between the essence
And the descent
Falls the Shadow
For Thine is the Kingdom

For Thine is
Life is
For Thine is the

This is the way the world ends
This is the way the world ends
This is the way the world ends
Not with a bang but a whimper.

weirdelf

one of the major poems of the modern world.

I was talking about what we hear

K

You asked for a few lines, how few is *your* few? Cheap is relative, my friend.

What exactly did you hear reading The Hollow Men, Jess?

~A

K

In your esteemed opinion? Or in mine? I've attended many workshops in my lifetime, Jess. Some of which were the first of their kind. So, I'll tell you what from now on (starting with today's poem) you re-write it the way you think a poem should be written a la Jess. Let's put this to the test.

Inflated ego vs. inflated ego or Kepler's law, a simple harmonic convergence? Let's see who's who.

[Anna throws down the gauntlet.]

~A

S

I'm not a member of this shop, but don't you think that posting such a lengthy poem might not be a good idea? What if All shop poems were this long, a shop would take for ever to complete.................stan

weirdelf

I'm sure Anna didn't realise what a lengthy process parsing is so I posted just the first part of The Hollow Men as a part of the workshop for a parsing exercise.

K

I posted the poem as an example, it was up to the leader(Jess) to accept it or not, and to choose which, if any part.

If one listens to the recording by Spoken Verse, the exercise is completed.

~A

weirdelf

of not emphasising anything in his readings. He was a snob that way, the worst should speak for themselveves.
Fair enough. But it leaves it up to us to try and parse his poetry. Something I would not take on willingly. Shakeseapeare, Yeats or Bryron sure, but you have basiicly challenged the whole point of this workshop. OK, good on you. Hinder or help

weirdelf

When you submit a poem, before saving scroll down, near the bottom it says Workshop and there is a little downward pointing arrow. Click on that and a drop list appears, click on Meter for Everyone.

This way we can find everything submitted for this worksshop linked from this page, and when we post feedback it will be highlighted as workshop feedback.

So, yes, I did incorrectly parse yours that you posted in PM, Ephraim, care to post it again as a poem for the workshop and we can all have a look at it?

The exercise everyone, is to write 4 lines of Iambic Pentameter-
da DUM da DUM da DUM da DUM da DUM
da DUM da DUM da DUM da DUM da DUM
da DUM da DUM da DUM da DUM da DUM
da DUM da DUM da DUM da DUM da DUM

on something really ordinary, like getting to the corner shop, or cooking breakfast.
Let's hear them people, we'll all have a go at checking the parsing.

weirdelf

please post it as a poem for this workshop, I've explained the procedure.

Oh when I said use Ctrl B To make bold stressed syllables, you have to select the syllable first.

I know we're going to have some difficulties with people parsing poems here, but we'll just have to use the "Rich Text" option on comments and select stressed sylables and press Ctrl B.

No hurry, this should be a liesurely workshop, we have computer technicalities and poetry jargon to deal with. But I give you all my word of honour it will be worth it.

weirdelf

this is going to be a long running workshop, around 30 days, so everyone can get a hang of the jargon and concepts.

I think this is the most worthwhile workshop I've run so far (although they've all been bloody good, love Chrys and Lou's appoaches as well) but it's going to be a bit like school work at times.

It's a bit like learning your times tables, once you've done it you never have to think about it again.

I do suggest you have a quick read of my blog
http://new.neopoet.com/weirdelf/blog/mon-2011-08-15-2353

weirdelf

I really think this is important, and you, Ephrhaim use meter well, but I would like everyone to learn how to use it it. We are not against each other,

K

I am *parsing* the last part...far be it for me to follow directions... you should know that by now.

THIS is the WAY the world ends
This is the WAY the WORLD ends
This is the way the WORLD ENDS.
NOT with a BANG but a WHIMPer/ (or with stress on the whole word).

I think if anything, one has learned with free verse and meter, is that there is an internal meter, and one gets it while reading, stressing words that count, if not syllables.

If I'm wrong, then am I a bad poet?

~A

weirdelf

The reason why I asked for 4 lines of Iambic pentameter on an ordinary topic was that the next exercise will be to do a minimal possible edit on those 4 lines to convert them to trochaic pentameter so we can compare and see and hear what a powerful sense of difference the meter alone makes. That is also why we are working with the simplest 2 syllable forms. Remember the example I gave in my blog?
http://new.neopoet.com/weirdelf/blog/mon-2011-08-15-2353

The mighty king foreswore his dreaded crown
The MIGH/ty KING/ foreSWORE/ his DREAD/ed CROWN.

Mighty Zeus foreswore his dreaded crowning
MIGHty/ ZEUS fore/SWORE his /DREADed /CROWNing.

Perhaps I should have explained this earlier, some of you may have thought it beneath you or too limiting, but see there is method in my pedanticism.

weirdelf

"If you don't like my peaches
why do you shake my tree?" Bessie Smith

Not really, to my sense of the word. The sense of ostranenie to me is when I feel I have read, seen or heard great art, been moved in some sense, then realise oh! it's just about a brick. Yet the feeling lingers.

Your best work seems to me to be reverse ostranenie- it seems, at first reading to be about matters or characters mundane or ordinary, certainly amusing, but with re-reading and absorbtion greater depths of feeling and meaning emerge.

weirdelf

Edit your 4 lines of iambic pentameter then copy and paste them into the same poem. Then do minimal possible edits to convert them to trochaic pentameter.
da DUM da DUM da DUM da DUM da DUM
da DUM da DUM da DUM da DUM da DUM
da DUM da DUM da DUM da DUM da DUM
da DUM da DUM da DUM da DUM da DUM

then we will look at cutting off beginning or end syllables to make strong or weak lines
DUM da DUM da DUM da DUM da DUM
or
da DUM da DUM da DUM da DUM da

I am asking you all to trust me again that this exercise is well worthwhile.

themoonman

There is truly method to your madness !

That will change maybe even the entire
meaning ... hmmm, and thanks again!

weirdelf

ok, we all know by now that almost no-one uses strict, perfect meter all the time or even within each poem. This exercise is about finding ways to break the rules of a metric form both to make it easier and expand the expressive poetential without losing the benefits of meter.

We haven't really looked at Anapestic and Trochaic meter but they are going to come in handy here.

Anapestic (da da DUM) is a rising rhythm like Iambic and also leads the reader to march on to the end of each line. An anapest can easily be slipped into a line of iambic, especially if the vowels are very unstressed, without jarring too much.

Dactylic (DUM da da) is a falling rhythm like Trochaic that leads the reader onto the next line. Likewise dactyls can be used in lines of trochaic.

But you will hear it jar if you put a dactyl into iambic or an anapest into trochaic.

We can also create strong lines or weak lines by clipping the first or last foot of iambic or trochaic

DUM da DUM da DUM da DUM (strong)
da DUM da DUM da DUM da (weak)

both can be useful, although beware of writing in all strong lines as the effect can become sing-song and rigid.

So this exercise should be the easiest. Again choose a very mundane subject, this is important to give you the freedom to play fancifully with your word choice and hopefully enhance the sense of Ostranenie we are looking for in this one. Describe a brick. Tying a shoelace. Anything that is not essentially emotive or profound.

Write a short poem (I wouldn't go above about 12 lines) in either Iambic or Trochaic, with a regular number of feet per line. Feel free to use anapests in iambic and dactyls in trochaics.

If you want to, use strong and weak lines but they should have a pattern like
Strong
weak
Strong
weak

or
Strong
weak
weak
Strong

Avoid rhyme.

Remember meter is based on the natural stresses of spoken English.

Relax, have fun, go for the sounds of the words, the poetry. We won't parse these, just see if they flow.

weirdelf

it can be in trimeter, tetrameter or pentameter, but try not to mix them up.

S

And just why should rhyme be avoided? I can easily see why it should not be Required. Is this just your own preference popping up or is there a reason behind this?..................stan

S

So it's up to me whether to rhyme or not? You know I enjoy the challenge of rhyme in my writing. Also, do I post when asked or whenever ready?...........stan

weirdelf

but the workshop is about meter. I asked for no rhyme so that we could clearly see the effects of the meter un-influenced by rhyme. Post whenever you're ready, don't forget to post it for the 'meter for everyone' workshop.

Are you clear on trimeter, tetrameter and pentameter? The mean 3, 4 and 5 feet per line, respectively.

S

I'm still trying to catch up with different meters but almost have them straight in my hollow head lol. I am thinking of submitting a morphing poem which will show how meter works in both rhyme and free verse within same poem. I'll probably screw it up but that's part of learning I guess..............stan

themoonman

I just wanted to say thank you for putting up with
me on this one, it turned out to be much harder for
me than I would've ever thought. I actually thought I'd
a grasp on meter, but found out in the past few weeks
how wrong I was. I thank you for the push to learn, and
for your patience. I will definitely walk away from here
feeling I've learned something, although I'm old and tomorrow
it might be gone (lol)

thanks Jess, I've enjoyed this workshop and everyone in it!

weirdelf

retrospectively I think the conversion to trochaic exercise was a mistake. To write in any meter you need to compose it from scratch in that meter. Sorry about that.

No putting up with, mate, I was pleased and gratified by everyone's input, except for the niggling about terminology.

Really glad you got something from it.

weirdelf

and thanks for all your work and making me giggle when I'm trying to be serious with your delightful diversions in commentary.

wesley snow

I learned what ostranenie is, wrote my first dactyl poem and didn't even use my rhyming dictionary.
For the next one, I think everyone should write an epic poem, but barring that little bit of absurdity...I suggest either a further discussion of meter using many of the less known pieces of that concept (spondee, pyrrhic, amphibrach...and so on) OR a discussion on rhyme (consonance, assonance, identicals...).
Those are my thoughts.
Thank you Jess. It was everything I have hoped for.
wesley

Tam the Chanter

Funny you should say that, I just so happen to have one about my person;

THE ILIAD
In Paphos, one momentous spring, (when nothing much was happening)
A rock-fall in a tomb caused consternation:
Behind the rocks, revealed at last, a great epistle from the past
In ancient Greek, which needed true translation.

Unfortunately for us all, to translate what was on the wall,
A vagrant Scottish drunk blagged his way in.
What follows is his woeful verse, making a bad job ten times worse
In his grave old Homer’s having quite a spin.
================================================
Starting with Paris; Trojan prince, (who walked with a decided mince)
One drunken night in Greece got off with Helen
This Grecian was no “pretty woman” (her DNA was barely human)
She weighed near 30 stone with BO smellin’

That night, sailing for Trojan shores, Paris was cut off in mid-snore
And landed on the floor among his lover
Her glass eye, wig and pearly teeth, with wooden leg hid underneath
Made Paris fear what else he might discover

And when a voice rasped from above; “Haw Paris, can I get more luv?”
The cultured prince decided he must end it.
“Coming precious” Paris lied, then threw himself over the side
But was hauled in by a sailor he’d “befriended”

His father choked and couldn’t speak, when first he saw the ugly Greek
Then yelled “You stupid boy, get her away!”
On hearing she was coming back, the Greeks assembled to attack
And launched a thousand ships to make her stay

And so began the siege of Troy, with Gods and heroes (pretty boys)
That’s for another day - this author’s done
But rumours say the wooden horse was entered at old Ayr racecourse
Romped home in the 3.30 ------ 10 to 1!

Ian

Description: Meter for everyone

NOTE- This is not just for Shark Pool, we will deal with all levels of ability.

This workshop is about the backbone and music of poetry- meter.

It is open to all levels of poets and is guarantee to be useful for everyone.

We will examine the four most important types of meter, do some fun exercises and finally write a poem.

The objective is to help everyone develop an ear for the natural meter of language, giving the basis for making this instinctive, rather than a concious task.

The final goal is to produce an "ostranenie" poem. Ostranenie is the art of making the commonplace unusual,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ostranenie

I will be running this in conjunction with my piece on meter in the September newletter, which is recommended reading.
http://new.neopoet.com/weirdelf/blog/mon-2011-08-15-2353

The details of the process of the workshop I'll post later, for now let me know by PM if you are interested,

cheers
Jess

Leader: Weirdelf
Moderator(s): themoonman

Objectives:To develop an "ear" for meter

Level of expertise: Open to all

Subject matter: Making the ordinary interesting through metric style.